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Author Subject:  Serious Note...Iraq vs. World
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Posted 30-01-03 - 02:08 AM
On a more serious note, I would like to hear all of your views of the current dilema between the U.S led Allies (U.S, Canada, England and Australia) vs. the "axis of evil" (Iraq, Iran and North Korea).

First of all I am a Canadian and I support the US 100%. I have always said that we need to get rid of the leaders in the world that let there own people starve and live off nothing while they sit in the lap of luxury. We cannot sit by and let these countries do what they want until we have a major catastophy. We have seen this happen many times before with World War 2 and sept 11th. We have already been shown that although war is bad, through war we can bring peace like we did in afganistan.

Even though I am Canadian I can't stand how passive Canadians really are. I have asked many people but they seem to think either "we don't want to get involved" or "all war is wrong". I'm not pro war but I am pro-freedom, and with leaders such as suddam many people do not have freedom. Currently Jean Chretien is not supporting or against a war (What kind of stand is that?) but more than likely we will follow the US and the British into war.

Hopefully this will all end with Saddam caveing in against allies pressures and no war will be needed. Unfortuately that will not be the case and a new war will be upon us.
1st Reply
Flasher T
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Posted 03-02-03 - 02:16 PM
Ugh... frankly I've talked so much about this at my car forum ( that I can't be bothered anymore. Sorry.

But in short, I do think that the US should invade Iraq.
2nd Reply

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Posted 07-02-03 - 03:22 PM
I'm not saying that Saddam would be a good leader, or anything, but to me it seems that the war is to "remove dictatorship from the world"

And what is USA? to me it seems that George W. Bush is trying to dictate the whole world. somewhere I read an article where he was _seriously_ referred to as "the president of the world" which is NOT right.

If USA is going to attack Iraq even though most of the world seems to be opposing it, it just proves that USA is being the dictator of the world.

As I am in Turkey right now, I have got a very close view. USA is threathening Iraq with a nuclear bomb, for example. And just how much damage would USA see? None. it is certainly easy to go to war when the countries to see damage are so close from your own. Think of Turkey, being the northern neighbour of Iraq, it will see a lot of damage. Iraq can't defend itself agains USA by "attacking" to USA, it can only defend against the troops that are brought here.

I am giving my support to UN, and I despice (or how ever you spell it) Bush.

It seems to me, that USA wants this war now cause they couldn't find Osama, so they have to do something to make the people "happy". or is there another reason? how come it just now accurred to them, that hey, that Saddam is still there, G. Bush the older couldn't take him down so let's make daddy proud and do it :) yiihaa!

and why actually is the Iraqi people so poor? because of Saddam, or because of blocking the trade some 10 years ago??? I'm sure you all know that before the war of Persian Gulf, Iraq was a rich country (yes, and Saddam was the president then already) and the most common health problem was overweight! but after UN - put under pressure of USA (like now - if UN keeps on following USA's will, it will loose my respect also, like USA did a long time ago) - placed the blocks for trade, there was no imported grocery, medicine or anything. Iraq is rich with oil and diamonds, I think gold and such also, but its agriculture is not very developped, and it can't feed all the people. How many children have died in hunger and diseaces because of the block? some say it is a seven-digit number. in millions, that is. Maybe somehow Saddam could have brought the block down, but is he the only one to blame?

Saddam is saying they are not having any weapons. everyone knows he is lying, cause it was USA, among others, that SOLD the weapons to Iraq. and now they want to start a war, cause Iraq has them. now what's the idea of that?

If you think that "World Peace" can be quaranteed by the upcoming war, you are wrong. Iraq has been very silent and "nice" there, until now, it has to respond to USA somehow. I'm sure you also know that half the world is against this war, against USA, and there is a chance, a big chance, that it would start the World War III.

In Turkey, they are very restless about the war, cause they know that if the war will come, Turkey will be among the countries to see most the damage. The South-Eastern Anatolia (GAP-region) will be the most vulnerable region. The Kurdish people will be the people to suffer most, I suppose. Turkey has carried out this "GAP-project" to develop the area, it has been a hard procedure, but finally there has been progress. this war will put the area back, to make it even worse than it was before.

That for the socio-economic side. and since I am working at WWF at the moment, and just a few weeks ago I was helping out GAP-project officer to finish her database of all the species of the region, I happened to notice that there are tens, maybe even hundreds of species, both plants and animals, that are endemic in that area. that means, that those species can not be found anywhere else in the whole world. How many species would be extinct after the war?

That is just about my comment. I am definately against the war, and I have to say I still haven't met one single person who would be supporting it in any way.

Even the Iraqi people that I have met in my life all "adore" Saddam. They say, that he can act very roughly when he is defending the country, but he takes care of the people. I think that most of the people would vote for Saddam even if there would be others to vote for. That might ofcourse be just propaganda, but I don't mind now. I believe he is not a good leader, but a war is not the way to solve it. if it is a war against Saddam, let it be a war against Saddam, not the whole nation. Iraqi people have been suffering long enough, do you think that a war will make it better????

removing Saddam might, but there has to be another way to do that instead of killing thousands of people (what will happen if the war starts. it's not going to be a little picnic, you all know that. Iraq will defend itself, and I'm sure it's allies will also join against USA. )

That is what I think.

Reporter & Assistant
3rd Reply

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Posted 07-02-03 - 03:29 PM
Oh, and one more thing.. I got this from a friend. you can sing it to the tune of "If you're happy and you know it clap your hands". the main message, I think, is that it seems that everytime something goes wrong in USA, it seems that bombing Iraq makes the situation better - that is, the people forget the real problems when they can start discussing a war!!

If we cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets hurt your Mama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are Saudi
And the bank takes back your Audi
And the TV shows are bawdy, Bomb Iraq.

If the corporate scandal's growin', bomb Iraq.
And your ties to them are showin', bomb Iraq.
If the smoking gun ain't smokin'
We don't care, and we're not jokin'.
That Saddam will soon be croakin', Bomb Iraq.

Even if we have no allies, bomb Iraq.
From the sand dunes to the valleys, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections;
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions, Bomb Iraq.

While the globe is slowly warming, bomb Iraq.
Yay! the clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq.
If the ozone hole is growing,
Some things we prefer not knowing.
Though our ignorance is showing, Bomb Iraq.

So here's one for dear old daddy, bomb Iraq,
From his favorite little laddy, bomb Iraq.
Saying "no" would look like treason.
It's the Hussein hunting season.
Even if we have no reason, Bomb Iraq!
4th Reply
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Posted 28-02-03 - 05:50 PM
I think Myra, you are right, I haven't met a signle person yet who was pro-war. Because face it, except Bush, who wants war?
If I recall in the cold war between Russia and Southern Europe (us, france and uk ect) and the parting of Germany... How many people died under the reign of dictator Stalin? He's number 1 mass murderer in the world, closely followed by Hitler.

I am thinking that a war is almost inevitable and that all we can have is hope... The most powerfull and loving thing in the world.

I hate war and I know I will always have hope to raise my children one day in a world which is beautiful and where people don't fight...Until that time I do believe it is us who makes the future for our offspring and can help whereever we are.. Please keep this in mind, when you can help... You'd wish for help too when in trouble.

5th Reply
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Posted 04-03-03 - 09:19 AM
A little oppinion from me:

I hate the American behaviour ...
Always want to be the strongest and always want
to be the best ...
And when someone is standing in the way to reach those goals ... then they want a war ...

Its the same with the EU ...
Here we do have such strange rulez ...
How can someone tell a native what they have to
do and don;t ...
My native has different traditions then the Dutch one.
The EU forbids us to keep on having our traditions
while they want to "come up" for the little natives"

I hate the power of big countries or big states ...
Please let every state/country stay what or who they are!
And the natives which do not have an own country, give them their orriginal land back ...
(guess this would be sad for the German, Dutch and Danish people in my case) ...
Then you dont get wars ... then we can live in peace!

See ya
6th Reply
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Posted 08-03-03 - 11:15 AM
Hai Arjen,

I don't want to upset you but even though you "hate" the big countries as America, it is thanks to them and ofcourse the Allied forces that you can live in this country... If it wasn't for them you probably would be speaking German by now.. I am absolutely not approving of what Bush is doing but keep in mind that there are enough things right now withholding him from attacking Iraq. For example the fact that for the new resolution they want to propose, "big" countries such as France and Russia will probably use their Veto rights to stop America from attacking..
There is more to it all.. America will not use their size of the country to force war on the rest of the world just because they want to kill Hussein... Bush may be irritating but he's not stupid... He knows that if he forces this war, there is a big chance of WW3.

And about the Netherlands... You speak of thoughts of only one (Socialistic) government party but there are more and I haven't heard anything bout them wanting to stop the Frisians in their ways.. You still live the same, you still speak Frisian.. they can never take that away from you, they can never force you to give up your traditions because it is part of you, it is your pride! And I admire that, but it is the fact that Friesland is a part of the netherlands and that the rest of the country doesn't speak Frisian... is it to much to ask that you speak dutch?

I hope that there will be no war but when there does, let's just make the best of it!

Love Gemma
7th Reply
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Posted 10-03-03 - 11:11 PM
I think people are not seeing the big picture. Yes the United States are a "super power" that are obviously seen as a bully to smaller countries. I can tell you that 99% of Canadains hate the United States because of there attitude. I look at the US in another way. Consider the world without Law or you community without a police force. There would be caos everywhere. To me the United States are much like the police. They protect the world from countries with "fucked up" governments that, if left alone, may attack anyone at any time. Germany was a prime example of that. If they really were a hostile country I think they would have taken over Canada by now. We do have tons of natural reasourses that would be of intrest to the US.
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Posted 11-03-03 - 10:07 AM
Hej Mondano,

that's absolutely a good point, also one from which I haven't viewed it yet.
9th Reply
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Posted 18-03-03 - 10:50 PM
Well I'm not surprised at all!! Canada has opted to stay out of the war against Iraq. We never want to make a stand even if the final outcome will be a positive one. Iraq will be left as a democratic nation much like Turkey and Saddam Hussan will be overthrown.

What I really hate is how Jean Chrietian would not make an opinion until the rest of the world made there's first. If the UN would have supported the war than Canada would have been right along side the US but since the other nations do not Canada won't. I would be much more excepting of Canadians not participateing if Jean Chretian had said no all along like the French did. What ever happened to standing up for what you believe in and not just following others. What also makes me made is that after the war is finished, Canada will be there to clean up the mess the US leaves behind. Wasting Canadian taxpayers money to fund something we opted to stay out of. Why? The answer is simple to make Canada look better to the rest of the world. It's sneaky but it has worked so far in other wars.
10th Reply
Flasher T
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Posted 19-03-03 - 07:08 PM
^What's even more funny is that Britain, whose head of state is the same as Canada's, supports the war, but Canada doesn't :D
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Posted 21-03-03 - 01:16 AM
Flasher T:

You are right. But you must understand that although Canada is very loyal to Britian, we are still a totally seperate country and make our own political dicisions.

For the most part in the past Canada has always sided with the U.S and Britian, because we need there friendship to survive as a nation.
12th Reply
Flasher T
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Posted 21-03-03 - 05:03 PM
*Ahem* Wrong person to preach to, mate. Estonia has a population of less than 1.4 million. Trust us, you really have no problem surviving as a nation :S
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Posted 22-03-03 - 08:40 AM
I'm totally against this war like all tha wars in general. The USA's aim is not to "build a new free state for the Iraqi people" as Bush said but it's done to represent US's power to control the situation all over the world, to show us (and not only Saddam) WHO is the boss here. Look, Bush doesn't care even about UN and NATO members opinion!!! The thinks, it seems, he is the only force here and now, as he's got his arms untied, he is gonna do everithing he wants. He even don't care about the Americans who will suffer from terroristic acts etc. He's done the thing that none of the American presidents had done before: he's blown up relations not only with China, Islamic world but even with his traditional allies, such as France and Germany.
And, moreover, any war leads to the victims. At the moment there are a few Iraqi people dead with a few children among them, as far as I know.And if the war goes on there'll be much more victims surely. Bush doesn't care about not-American people's lifes!!! And all of this he does only in order to show thw world his power!
I don't like the situation in Iraq and this regime but still there's another, non-military way to solve this problem- actually war is not the best way of solving this problem.
And, at last, I think that one of the most important reasons (an inrerior one)of the starting this war is that Bush has to move American people attention from the interior problems they have now (as I know, they do have).

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Posted 22-03-03 - 07:40 PM

I do respect your opinion and I will not say that your view is wrong exactly. (Remeber this is only a friendly debate). Everyone is entitled to there on view.

That being said...

You mentioned that he does not care about the feelings of other countries. This is no true excatlly because you must realize USA is not the only country that believes military action against Iraq is neccesary. He currently has 40 countries supporting action against Iraq, but this may not be so obvious since most of the countries aren't what we call the "superpowers" of the world. Yes you may be anti-american but you failed to mention the other ally forces such as, Britian, Australia and the surrounding neighbours of Iraq. Tony Blair (Britian's Prime Minister) is even more supportive and outforth about this war than Bush is. Noone mentions Tony Blair as an evil man and I don't see any anti-British arguments. Blair is putting his political carrer on the line to support something he thinks is right, even though most British people don't support this war. THAT IS A MAN I RESPECT. I think people are just used to hateing Americans. Do you now hate Austrlians, British, Qutaries, Afganies, etc? (the list goes on, I can find out all the countries if you want. I just can't name them off the top of my head. Most of them are middle eastern countries who are closer to Iraq). France said they would veto ANY resolution given by the americans that ivolves militray action, Russia too. France and Russia currently have oil contracts in Iraq that will be voided if US takes over. Who's really in or out of it for the oil?

I really don't think there is a none-military way to slove this issue. Iraq has had 5 months (since November) to disarm. What have they done? They have destroyed like 70 scud missels (something around that number). Do you think that is sufficiant? I don't!!

I can go on and on with reasons I think that this war is neccesary. They showed on CNN video of Iraqies that have alreday been liberated in Southern Iraq. These Iraqies were cheering and tearing down posters of Saddam as the allies rolled in. Does this seem like a countries people that is being liberated or punished by the American's and allies?

One last point:
You must think about all the facts surrounding this situation and decided for your self if you think this is a just cause, no matter what the politions say. I can honestly say I believe this cause is just!

What do you think?

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Posted 24-03-03 - 01:31 PM
Well... First of all, I don't wanna hear anything about "hating Americans": I believe that all the people from any country are the same and I cannot hate any race or nation. I don't like American presedent- and that's all- but I don't have anything against American people, especially as I have some friends from the USA. You know I respect American nation and the USA.
Secondly, I don't think that all these 40 countries you've mentoined support Bush's politics towards Iraq. I know, for instance, that although Jose-Maria Aznar (the prime-minister of Spain) supports US actions in Iraq, about 97% of Spaniards are against the war. I think it should be taken into consideration, shouldn't it?
Thirdly, I don't know if you'll understand me, but I'm a bit afraid of US politics toward the other countries- it's becoming more and more similar to USSR actions during the Cold War. You know here, in Russia, there are many people who thinks in the same way because we know what it is as we've passed through it and I think nobody wants it all to repeat.
And, at last. I don't think the reason for this war is oil, even for the USA though lots of people all over the world think so. It seems rather stupid to me because it's too expensive to try to get oil by the means of military power. As I know, One day of American navy presence there costs about 20,000,000$. It would be much easier to buy the oil.
And I don't think all these contracts are so important for Russians: we call it "a drop in the sea". The most important partners for Russia are The USA and Germany, by the way. And what do you think about the position of France and Germany? They don't have any economical relations with Iraq.
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Posted 06-04-03 - 07:21 PM
Hey everyone,
I am an American and I strongly disagree with what everyone is saying. First off, Myra, I am for the war because we have done everything in our power to keep from going to war. Bush's dad did not make him go to war, he didnt even offer his opinion to his son.
We are not threatening Iraq with a nuclear bomb, on the contrary it was THEM that was threatening to nuke us. I agree that we flaunt our power a little too much, but we have done everything in our power to not go to war with Iraq but they have not cooperated so far and war is a last resort.
Americans do NOT want war. We despise war. We only get entered in WW I and II because we didnt want to see all of the European countries get taken over by Germany. As for the other wars, they were in self defense, had we not acted then we would get taken over and had our people killed and then european countries may not have our aid in battles ahd they gotten into fighting.
ATL, you say you hate American behavior. American's have done nothing to harm you or any other country that is not choosing either side in this war. Iraq is not a nice quiet little country, they are holding chemical weapons and plan to use them against ANY country that gets in their way, not just the U.S.A.
True, we did give them weapons, but we did that out of our kindness because we thought that they were going to use them to defend themselves. Then we left them alone, then they come up and use those weapons on us and kill our people whenever we were just trying to help them....
Make any sense, of course not. War never does. But if we have to do this to keep our freedom then so be it. I support the movement 100% and nothing anyone will say is going to change my opinion.
In Gods Name and God Bless,
Heather :)
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Posted 08-04-03 - 07:33 PM
Now the war has already began, and I support everything US army does down there. In one year more iraqi’s die in prisons and because of stupid laws of Iraq than in this war. And, by the way, France and Germany sold weapons a while ago (in the beginning of the 90s) to Iraq, and war threat meant that they would not get paid for these weapons. Its far below human rights and stuff like that, if countries that are against the US invasion wouldn’t have any personal interests, they would cooperate with States. In my opinion, they might as well bomb North Korea too. Before the WW2 western union did the smoochy-gootchy politics with Hitler, Saddam is even more wrong-headed, ambitious and cruel. If he had an opportunity to eliminate ”all white unbelieving capitalists” in the world, he certainly would.
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Posted 08-04-03 - 11:06 PM
I have to laugh at what you said about the US selling Iraq weapons "out of our kindness." That is total BS and everyone knows it. The US sold Iraq weapons in order to get money and more political power, I think everyone will agree with that. Even though I support the US in this war with Iraq, I am not nieve enough to think money isn't in the back of Americans minds all the time. Even if this means that "Liberating Iraq" and setting up a democracy will ensure a good tradeing partener with Iraq and mabey haveing a tight grip over the economy of a free'd democratic Middal East. The US have alot to offer a democratic Middle East in exchange for OIL.

I do agree with you that the US is NOT going to war to just take the oil or to finish what Bush Senior didn't. This just an excuse that people who don't want to face reality and are anti-American use. The US is honest in there motives to set the Iraqi people free. They have said on CNN that they will use alot of Saddam's Oil Revenues to rebuild Iraq after the war.

The other day they found hundreds of body parts in bags. What country/leader would cut up body's and stick them in bags and leave them to rot in a building, without buring them? Civilized people have been burying there dead for centuries. There is NO excuse for this. Also the soldiers who pretended to surrender and then opened fire as the U.S forces came to get them, honestly just tells me that they have no morals or respect for International Law concerning war. It also seems that Iraq does not take prisoners of war but instead torture them to get infromation and them kill them, all the meanwhile videotapeing it.
19th Reply
Flasher T
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Posted 09-04-03 - 12:23 AM
Mondano... while I more or less support the war, I do want to make a few points.

First of all. It is absolutely clear to everyone that the true reason why this war is happening is oil. (In school, in history lessons, our teacher drilled us long and hard on the difference between reason and pretence.) Bush is the tool of American big business, mostly industry and oil companies. Since America has obviously no intention of giving up SUV's, he needs to have control over the world's oil reserves. The war in Iraq is all about establishing a strong military presense in the Middle East.

Second, and more important: while it's obvious that the only real resistance offered was by the Republican Guard (as opposed to regular troops), you still have to understand that THEIR COUNTRY IS BEING INVADED. You have said that you don't like your PM, Chretien; if the US invaded Canada in order to overthrow him and establish American puppet rule in the country, would you fight back? I'm pretty sure you would.

I believe it was Harry Truman (although I may be wrong) that said, "He's a bastard, but he's OUR bastard." As much as most Iraqis want Saddam gone, they sure as hell don't want their country to become an American colony.
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